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<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang=EN-GB>Greetings All. I was delighted to
hear that the Bertalanffy Discussion Forum was finally revived by Tom Mandel (hi
Tom, it is nice to know that you are around), and that with a vital and
fundamental question. After reading through all the correspondences, I am once
more delighted to say that, this time, I am very much in agreement with him.
Here are my thoughts on the subject:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB>"The comments so far are very interesting – as Tom wrote – but hardly
form a consensus", because everybody appears to have a different concept behind
the label. The reason for this are the various synonyms the word "system" has,
like: scheme, organisation, arrangement, classification, structure,
co-ordination, organism, method, technique, procedure, and even orderliness and
logic. If all and everything these labels cover are being stuck under the label
"system", than the answer is that all and everything is a system, and Tom
wouldn't have popped the question.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang=EN-GB>The right approach would rest in
Tom</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>'</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang=EN-GB>s further
clarification: </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB>What I had in mind when I asked the question was the integrative
system, the kind where the elements work together and form from that a new
whole. The question is important when we talk about integrative systems because
the new whole is actually the emergent property of the relationships." Just as
right is </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">James
Rose by stating that "GST addresses deeper principles and ideas – it challenges
the methods of analysis themselves and how people think and assess what they
encounter." </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB>– I will follow these lines of thoughts, because they coincide with
my ideas.</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>Ever since the proton, neutron and electron – the three stable
fundamental particles of all material manifestation – ceased to be </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>hard
little balls</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>" and
became swirling energy-bundles of ordered processes <SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">in interwoven and interdependent harmonic
system-relationships of energy-quantums</SPAN>; and the various intertwining and
spinning processes of their harmonious interactions are forming the hundred or
so stable elements; which, in turn, can constitute, according to their valency,
innumerable chemical substances, stable molecules, "things" also ceased to be
"things", and became <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">harmonious, rational
and productive </I><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>"processes":
dynamic systems of various orders of complexity.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>The
above chain of systems continues, in growing order of complexity, through
macromolecules</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB> of aminoacids, organelles, cells,
tissues, organs, germinal-organ-systems, organisms, ecological communities,
planetary life-complex. Above the two directional linear interaction of the
members of this chain, there exists also the perpendicular interaction of each
member with those on its own level, rendering the planetary life-system to be a
spatial concept. </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>I must stress the attribute <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">"harmonious"</I>, because</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB> harmony is a fundamental factor in all constructive manifestation
(as is "cacophony", its antagonistic opposite, a destructive, degenerative one);
and is thus a foundation principle of the Universe. It produces monistic
relationship – or inversely, monistic relationship represents harmony. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>I must also stress the attribute </SPAN><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>rational</SPAN></I><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN></I><SPAN lang=EN-GB>, because ad-hoc events cannot enter
into and be parts of a harmonious relationship and cooperation.</SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>And I must also stress </SPAN><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>productive</SPAN></I><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>",</SPAN></I><SPAN lang=EN-GB> as the necessary attribute of both the
individual constituents, and of the new system of higher complexity they
constitute. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB>Consequently, the concept 'system' – within the limits of the General
System Research and Theory – should represent the harmonious, rational and
productive interaction of constituting elements, forming, through these
properties, a complete unit, that becomes thus more than the sum of its
constituting elements, and that cannot be reduced to, or derived at through the
analysis of any of its constituents.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>The
reducibility principle comes from what I must call a belief, that a system
originates through the interaction of two or more material elements, and is the
derivative of the qualities inherent in these constituting material elements,
which themselves cause the interaction; and that, through their analysis, the
whole system can be known and synthesised. In turn, this principle is based on
the belief that the new system becomes, through the original interaction, just
another "thing" but of higher complexity than are its constituting
"things".<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>The
"interaction" of the constituting elements does not represent the triggering off
the "being" of a new system of higher complexity, but is a sine qua non
constituent of the new system in form of its incessant process of "becoming",
the cessation of which process would result in the immediate disintegration of
the system into its constituting elements. Thus, the "interaction" itself is as
much a constituting element of the derivative system, as are all the "material"
ones, even if it is of non-material nature.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>That
the "interaction" itself is not of material nature, and that neither is it
inherent in any of the constituting elements, I will illustrate with the simple
example of water:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>If a
container is filled with a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen, the oxygen, being the
heavier, will settle in the lower part, and the two gases will stay in that
state side by side till doomsday, without ever changing their identity. Never
will they turn themselves into water, or into hydrogen-hyperoxide, through an
inherent, self-induced process. By introducing a spark or high pressure into
this mixture, the consequent explosion will end up by joining two hydrogen and
one oxygen atoms, to be held together by relatively strong (valence) forces,
</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>which compound, in consequence, will act as water
molecules with completely different physical and chemical identity and
distinctively new character, without any reference to that of any of its parts,
which become unrecognisable in the new complex. This new </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>identity</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB> manifests the underlying </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>mind-stuff</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>, that <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">transcends</I> the constituting elements and
is <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">inherent</I> in the derivative
system.</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>At
</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>the first stratum of the Natural Order, where
materialisations happen, where elementary matter (proton, neutron and electron)
appear, formed out of electromagnetic energy-quantums by their particular
ordering principles (the inferred, but unexplained 'virtual particles' of
nuclear physics) </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>into swirling energy-bundles of ordered processes (and where they can
also disintegrate, leaving behind electromagnetic radiation), there exist only
two constituents "interacting" to form the systems of elementary particles: free
energy-quantums and their ordering principles that are not of material
nature.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>The further consideration that
these ordered processes, consisting of energy and mind-stuff, are constituting
the atoms of all the elements according to their particular ordering principles
of the second order; and that a same kind of systematic procedure continues
towards ever increasing complexities, brings to the conclusion, </SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>that <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">free energy and
differentiated underlying principle are the two common denominators of all the
material manifestations</I>; and that <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">matter, in all its forms, is a structured
process complex of by the mind ordered energy-fields at all levels of its
manifestation</I>, and that the Universe – as any part of it – is formed by
order imposed over a primordial energy-soup by the Ordering Principle which
pervades it.</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>
</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>This idea, or rather knowledge, is expressed concisely
by the Nobel laureate biologist George Wald of Harvard: "The stuff of the
universe is mind stuff."</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>The planetary life-complex
includes each and all of its constituents in systemic co-existence, from the
elementary particles upwards. It is self-configuring and self-sustaining, being
dependent only on the energy-source of the Sun. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>For a system to function harmoniously, rationally and productively,
its underlying principle, that animates the constituent parts into a system of
higher complexity, must possess these qualities. I would go even further to
state that a functional, natural system is alive at its own level of existence,
due to its underlying mind-stuff </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>being
alive, conscious and intelligent at the level of its
manifestation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-style: italic" lang=EN-GB>I suggest that <I>from a
universal point of view, </I></SPAN><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>an</SPAN></I><SPAN lang=EN-GB> <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">entity is alive if it partakes – at the
level of its own being – as a subject, instrument and originator in the
universal life-processes.</I> Von Bertalanffy's and Woltereck's <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">anamorphosis, i.e., tendency to create new
forms of life; </I>Schrödinger's<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> feeding
on negative entropy;</I> Herrick's<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">
spontaneously developing states of greater heterogeneity and complexity; </I>and
Szent-Györgyi's<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> syntropy, </I>that is<I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">, innate drive in living matter to perfect
itself, </I>are clear<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> </I>manifestations
of the<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> will to live </I>and the<I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> will to evolve.</I></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"
lang=EN-GB>Considering that, summarised: each system represents more than the
sum of its parts; each system is constituted of systems of a lower order and its
ordering principle; each system is an integral constituent of a system of a
higher order; and that none of the systems can be reduced to any of its
constituent parts; – a "system" is, in fact a holistic order, where the label
"system" can be exchange with the label "holon" without altering anything on the
general concept.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold" lang=EN-GB>The
Universe itself is a self-configuring system, where macrocosmic and microcosmic
self-configurations are co-emergent and interdependent, and represent thus one
self-evolving and self-maintaining system. </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>While the
evolution starts on the one extreme with the formation of elementary particles
out of electromagnetic energy, the macrocosmic starts with the spatial
distribution and ordering of these same elementary particles, developing the
double helix by starting simultaneously from both extremes.</SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>Thought, logic and creativity are as intrinsic in the microcosmic
existence as in the macrocosmic one. Microcosmic logic and creativity is
producing and is constantly juggling and reshuffling all the fundamental and
ephemeral subatomic particles, without ever leaving any of it to <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">chance</I>, providing dependable building
blocks, basic rules and ordered energy supplies for a universe with infinite
varieties of form and action. Macrocosmic logic and creativity maintains and
recreates space-time – the thought-form defining inertial behaviour of matter –,
every instant altering its curvature according to the momentary state of
distribution of matter in the universe; and keeps on manifesting itself in solar
and galactic development, dynamic equilibrium and self-generated and
self-sustained metabolic processes, as those of the whole universe. Within all
the ordered turbulence, energy, coalesces into forms of inorganic and organic
matter, composing the biological structure of living organisms able to support
various levels of higher intelligences, and constituting the crystalline
structure of their underlying ground. This particular reference frame is at the
level of the greatest complexity and diversity within a universal system. It is
the centre of the evolutionary double helix spiralling from the two infinite
extremes: the point towards which syntropy, complexity, diversity increase, and
where local universal evolution culminates: the planetary life-complex. It is
also the centre of the two velocity spirals, from where particular velocity
ranges increase in both directions.</SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>All of it is in harmony with the fundamental </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>chord</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB> of
the universe. Everything that we call </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>nature</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>",</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB> and consider as if it would be something
external, something unrelated to us, something that is there for us, superior
human beings, to use and exploit, is existing within this fundamental harmony.
Until all the </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>real human beings</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>
realise, as their tribal ancestors did, that all their social, political and
economic systems and all their secular and religious philosophies must be in
tune with that fundamental harmony, there will be </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial" lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB>system
designers</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"
lang=EN-GB>"</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB> flourishing on thinking up exploitive
systems and their impressive system models and mathematical formulas, the
social, political and economic disasters and widespread nihilism will continue
within all the existing human cacophony.</SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB>I very much realise that the above presented ideas will please
extremely few people, because the materialist credos do not allow "underlying
principles" or "mind-stuff", replacing it with verbs manipulated into acting
subjects (about which I can supply a host of examples both in cosmological and
in evolutionary theories); and the religious credos accept only their particular
dogmas about extrinsic anthropomorph god-images approachable through the
theocratic hierarchy and knee-bent image-supplication or cross-legged
navel-watching. I would be, however, very glad to receive some rational and
constructive arguments.</SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB></SPAN> </P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"
lang=EN-GB>Imre<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>